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Praegu on 28. mai 2018, 05:23

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Tee uus teema Vasta  [ 71 postitust ]  Mine lehele 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Järgmine
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 Postituse teema: Orkid
PostitusPostitatud: 27. jaanuar 2004, 23:21 
Eemal
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Liitunud: 05. veebruar 2003, 19:38
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"...kõik need kvendid, kes sattusid Melkori kätte enne Utumno lõhkumist, heideti seal vangikongi, ning nad laostati ja orjastati aeglaste julmade kunstidega; ja nii aretas Melkor haldjaid kadestades ja osatades orkide võika rassi, kes olid hiljem nende kõige vihasemad vaenlased. Sest orkid elasid ja paljunesid nagu Iluvatari lapsed..."

Kas orkid olid siis põms surematud nagu elfidki? ma pole lihtsalt selle peale varem mõelnud... sest surelikkuse andis Iluvatar alles inimestele ja neid siis veel ei olnud.

igal juhul on orkide loomist nimetatud Morgothi kõige nurjatumaks teoks, ja mina olen sellega üsna nõus.

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PostitusPostitatud: 28. jaanuar 2004, 00:18 
Orkide surelikkus vs. surematus.

Kontseptsioon, mis häiris Tolkieni Orkide puhul niivõrd, et ta loobus teooriast, et Orkid aretas Melkor Haldjatest.

Ning valis Inimesed Haldjate asemele.


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PostitusPostitatud: 28. jaanuar 2004, 16:03 
Mina panin küll oma rassikirjeldusse,et orkid on tulnud haldjatest aga nüüd aetakse mind nii segi,et pea hakkab veel rohkem valutama.


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PostitusPostitatud: 28. jaanuar 2004, 17:07 
Eemal
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Aga sa pane, et Tolkienil on erinevad versioonid ja et ta alguses eelistas haldjaid, siis surematuse küsimuse esile kerkides, inimesi.

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PostitusPostitatud: 29. jaanuar 2004, 17:46 
Panen,panen aga ma vaatan,et mu rassikirjeldus on nadi võitu ja hakkan seda täiendama.


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PostitusPostitatud: 22. mai 2004, 13:50 
Eemal
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Leidsin arvutist ühe vana artikli või seesuguse, mis võtab kokku selle orkide päritolu vaidluse.

In this thread I would like to summarize and explain what we really know about orcs. And I would like that we clarify some things about Orcs, which people have accepted as true, but they are really a matter of debate. I have gathered many quotes because I wanted to come to some conclusions about orcs. This question has been previously many times discussed but never we came to the true answer. Maybe final answer about orcs couldn’t be reached, although I think this what I shall present is true. But, if I’m wrong, at least we can try to reject or accept some of these quotes, which I will present here. In my thread I will mostly concentrate on origin of Orcs. (In the following text notice my bold emphasis)

1. I shall begin my thread with this quote: “The origin of the Orcs is a matter of debate. Some have called them the Melkorohíni, the Children of Melkor; but the wiser say: nay, the slaves of Melkor, but not his children; for Melkor had no children. Nonetheless, it was by the malice of Melkor that the Orcs arose, and plainly they were meant by him to be a mockery of the Children of Eru, being bred to be wholly subservient to his will and filled with unappeasable hatred of Elves and Men.” (HOME; Morgoth’s Ring)

So, we can say one thing about the orcs for sure: they were not created by Morgoth;
“…only Eru could make creatures with independent wills” (HoME: Morgoth’s Ring)”
This has almost never been a matter of debate, so I shall move on to origin.

2. There are two main possible theories about Orcs origin a) They have ‘elven origin’ b) they have ‘human origin’
(I might also add third theory, which claims both)

A) I have noticed that it is generally believed that Melkor developed Orcs from elves by torture; “But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This is may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar.”
( Silmarillion; Of the coming of the elves and the captivity of Melkor)
Here we find out that orcs were once elves. This was indeed one of the Tolkiens first ideas about orcs. But later that opinion changed. And you must remember that “Silmarillion” has been edited by Christopher Tolkien, not by Master himself.

The origin of Orcs has been greatly discussed in “History of Middle Earth: Morgoth’s Ring” So I shall present here more quotes from that source; ”In the last sentence of the original short version of text VII (p. 406) my father wrote that the Eldar believed that Morgoth bred the Orcs 'by capturing Men (and Elves) early' (i.e. in the early days of their existence). This indicates that his views on this subject had changed since the Annals of Aman. For the theory of the origin of the Orcs as it stood, in point of written record in the narratives,… 'this is held true by the wise of Eressëa':…” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)

After this follows the fragment that I quoted from Silmarillion, but look what follows that fragment;
“…On the typescript of AAm my father noted against the account of the origin of the Orcs: 'Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish' (p. 80).” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)
Here we can see that Tolkien has changed his mind many times about the origin of the orcs and that Silmarillion explanation has been written on basis, which has been rejected almost immediately.


But, we also must see the other quotes about this; “But Finrod probably went too far in his assertion that Melkor could not wholly corrupt any work of Eru, or that Eru would (necessarily) interfere to abrogate the corruption, or to end the being of His own creatures because they had been corrupted and fallen into evil.
It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)
So here we see that there may be some elvish strain in the Orcs, yet here it says they were mated with beasts and Men,(meaning the theory of clean elf origin is again disputed) From this quote we can see solution about ‘orcs immortality question’. So, people here it says that they weren’t immortal and it’s (partially) supporting the ‘Elven theory’. So, all those people who think they are immortal, you are most likely wrong, Even if you believe they have elven origin, they are not immortal as I showed here. Needless to say this quote partially supports ‘from men theory’(at least immortality part). I will quote more on this afterwards.

This next quote is supporting ‘elven theory’ but see what I have written after it; “This is another and quite separate note on the origin of the Orcs, written quickly in pencil, and without any indication of date.
This suggests - though it is not explicit - that the 'Orcs' were of Elvish origin. Their origin is more clearly dealt with elsewhere. One point only is certain: Melkor could not 'create' living 'creatures' of independent wills.” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)
It looks like this one wasn’t very important to Tolkien, as it was written “quickly” on a “separate note”.

Here I have a quote which supports both sides; “Since Melkor could not 'create' an independent species, but had immense powers of corruption and distortion of those that came into his power, it is probable that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them plainly (and biologically) were corruptions of Elves (and probably later also of Men). But always among them (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes.” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)
But there is one problem with this, the lines which follow this quote are:
“He now expressly asserts the earlier view (see p. 408 and note 1) that the Orcs were in origin corrupted Elves, but observes that later' some were probably derived from Men. In saying this (as the last paragraph and the reference to The Lord of the Rings Appendix F suggest) he seems to have been thinking of Trolls, and specifically of the Olog-hai,..” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)
It’s kind of confusing working with HOME because in early days Tolkien hasn’t decided to whom “orcs/orks” actually refers. If you didn’t noticed it, read my bold emphasis.

B) After that we have some interesting quotes which are maybe the solution to this problem; “Those who believe that the Orcs were bred from some kind of Men, captured and perverted by Melkor, assert that it was impossible for the Quendi to have known of Orcs before the Separation and the departure of the Eldar. For though the time of the awakening of Men is not known, even the calculations of the loremasters that place it earliest do not assign it a date long before the Great March began, certainly not long enough before it to allow for the corruption of Men into Orcs. On the other hand, it is plain that soon after his return Morgoth had at his command a great number of these creatures, with whom he ere long began to attack the Elves. There was still less time between his return and these first assaults for the breeding of Orcs and for the transfer of their hosts westward.”

“This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men.” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)
So, these are the quotes which support theory of origin from Men, I personally believe that this theory is accurate.

Also, in next quote there are similarities of Orcs with humans, which definitely prove us that their connection to Men is bigger then to the Elves; “They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)

Also on the problem about chronology we have this solution; “If is thus probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology…
…We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first maybe so much for the provision of servants or the infantry of his wars of destruction, as for the defilement of the Children and the blasphemous mockery of the designs of Eru. The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men.”
“This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)
I believe that my comment on this is not necessary.


If you are about to give me some quote from TTT, where Treebeard is explaining origin of Orcs, please consider what Tolkien has written in one of his letters;
“Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and although he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand ..."


3. As for those people who cannot understand how “Shagrat and Gorbag, for instance, seem to have clear memories of the days when there were no "big bosses" around.” Or how in the Hobbit there are some goblins, chieftains or all those long lived orcs/goblins are still alive I have the following quotes.

“Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men. ” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)

“For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)
Here is resolved any dilemma about how can there be some orcs which are immortal, if Orcs have human origin.

I find that those words from Gorbag rather interesting: "Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." (TTT, The Choices of Master Samwise")
This is just mine theory but it makes sense to me; when we people talk about afterlife we often use the phrase “on the other side”, why would orcs refer to Valinor as “on the other side” in this context. Especially why if we know that Valinor wasn’t so cold or dark. So I believe that he is referring to our afterlife thus confirming that Orcs share same destiny as humans. Humans in ME probably used this phrase as well. I can’t find a quote but it makes sense.


CONLUSION:
Orcs were bred from men.
Even though I heard lots of people who don’t agree with “my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men” statement I believe it’s true, after everything I have read about this topic, I can say that I have seen evidence which are more for this theory then for the ‘elven’ theory. Maybe I can only accept that somehow maybe only very first small groups from which very first orcs were made were elves, but I will accept this only if you somehow prove that all I have written here is false.
If you look at all my quotes you will notice that they are mostly supporting ‘from men’ theory’, this is not just because I’m for this theory, but also because I could find more quotes about this. The rare ones, which are supporting ‘elven origin’ are mostly small and seem irrelevant because they are contradicting themselves or there is some other reason why they didn’t attract my attention.

_________________
Kuningate laevu tõukas
Üle vete tuul.
Mida tõid nad maalt, mis ammu
Merre vajund?
Seitse tähte, seitse kivi,
Ühe valge puu.


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PostitusPostitatud: 26. mai 2004, 16:59 
Eemal
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Nolwendil kirjutab:
“Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men. ” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)

“For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)[/i]


See argument, et orkikaptenid olid maiarid, on minu meelest ülimalt huvitav. Huvitav, kas see käis ainult Melkori tuhvlialuste (I Ajastu orkide) või ka Sauroni omade kohta? Et siis kas Shagrat ja Gorbag olid maiarid? Arvestades nende väheseid võimeid julgeks arvata, et mitte. Aga kurat seda teab - mitte kõik maiarid polnud nii tugevad kui Istarid või Sauron.

_________________
Kuningate laevu tõukas
Üle vete tuul.
Mida tõid nad maalt, mis ammu
Merre vajund?
Seitse tähte, seitse kivi,
Ühe valge puu.


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PostitusPostitatud: 06. juuni 2004, 10:56 
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Tsiteeri:
See argument, et orkikaptenid olid maiarid, on minu meelest ülimalt huvitav. Huvitav, kas see käis ainult Melkori tuhvlialuste (I Ajastu orkide) või ka Sauroni omade kohta? Et siis kas Shagrat ja Gorbag olid maiarid? Arvestades nende väheseid võimeid julgeks arvata, et mitte. Aga kurat seda teab - mitte kõik maiarid polnud nii tugevad kui Istarid või Sauron.


Loomulikult. Ja eelnev suht põhjapanev tõestus ja usutavad tsitaadid räägivad tugevalt selle kasuks.

Ja arvatavasti esimesed orkid olid haldjatest, sest lihtsalt kedagi teist polnud maailmas olemas. Järgnevad kindlasti mõlemaist .. enam kindlasti inimestest. Ja no lõppkokkuvõttes polegi tähtis kui palju kellest, kuid selge on see, et inimesi langes rohkem vangi, kuna neid oli ka rohkem. Mida aeg edasi, seda enam hakkasid domineerima inimgeenid ja seetõttu ka vanus vähenes.

Samamoodi võib spekuleerida, et Sauron (vt lõiku kronoloogia probleemi kohta) eksperimenteeris ka päkapikkude piinamisega, kuid kuna nende kohta pole suurt midagi mainitud, siis võib edasi spekuleerida nende sobimatuse kohta. Või et mõned moondati, kuid lihtsalt pole nende kohta midagi mainitud - võibolla päkad isegi ei teadnud, et nende vaenlase kätte langenud võitlejatega midagi taolist on võimalik teha. Ega tava-haldjad ja inimesedki teadnud sellest midagi, arvan. See oli vast priviligeeritud info.


Lõik orki kaptenite kohta ajas mul silmad suureks ja suu vajus lahti..

Tõesti ülimalt huvitav teema - midagi uut Keskmaalt - asi mida ma arvasin enam mitte võimalik olevat.

Mort paneb "to do listi" kirja boldiga rõhutades, et ta hakkaks HoME't läbi töötama...


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PostitusPostitatud: 06. juuni 2004, 13:28 
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Nolwendil kirjutab:
I find that those words from Gorbag rather interesting: "Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." (TTT, The Choices of Master Samwise")
This is just mine theory but it makes sense to me; when we people talk about afterlife we often use the phrase “on the other side”, why would orcs refer to Valinor as “on the other side” in this context. Especially why if we know that Valinor wasn’t so cold or dark. So I believe that he is referring to our afterlife thus confirming that Orcs share same destiny as humans. Humans in ME probably used this phrase as well. I can’t find a quote but it makes sense.


Mina isiklikult arvan, et Gorbag mõtles siin hoopis "Varjude Maailma", seda kohta, kus elasid nazgulid ja kuhu kandus Sõrmuse sõrmepanija. Haldjad elasid vististi mõlemas maailmas, arvatavasti siis ka ainurid.

_________________
Kuningate laevu tõukas
Üle vete tuul.
Mida tõid nad maalt, mis ammu
Merre vajund?
Seitse tähte, seitse kivi,
Ühe valge puu.


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PostitusPostitatud: 06. juuni 2004, 13:36 
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Mortimer kirjutab:
Tõesti ülimalt huvitav teema - midagi uut Keskmaalt - asi mida ma arvasin enam mitte võimalik olevat.


You were wrong... dead wrong! :lol:

Ma alles eile Morgoth's Ringi lugedes avastasin teksti "The Statute of Finwe and Miriel" omavat niipalju uusi seoseid ja asju, et ma võtsin kätte pastaka ja hakkasin märkmeid tegema. Ning kokku olen ma HoME ca 5000 lk-st läbi lugend ainult 500 :roll: .

Vähemalt praegu on mul tunne, et Tolkieni teoste "viimase semikoolonini läbi uurimiseks" (nagu see topakas muinasjutuuurija ütles) läheb küll veel 50 aastat aega.

_________________
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Mida tõid nad maalt, mis ammu
Merre vajund?
Seitse tähte, seitse kivi,
Ühe valge puu.


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PostitusPostitatud: 06. juuni 2004, 23:32 
Eemal
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Lugenud läbi selle pika jutu ülalpool, tekkis mul hoopis mõte, et ehk olid kuulsad orkijuhid pärit Melkori esimesest katseseeriast ehk siis kinninabitud haldjatest. Eks paljud said ju ajaloo käigus surma nagu haldjadki -- võitlusväljal; aga mõned "surematud" tüübid olid alles jäänud veel ka kolmanda ajastu lõpuks.
Ja siis, kui esimene katseseeria oli tulemuslikult selja taga, võis hakata ootama inimesi, kelle tegemisi Valad ilmselt enam nii pingsalt ei jälgiks kui haldjate omi. Ja et mitte jätkata kohutavat surmtõsidust, siis võiks ju ka fantaseerida kirjutamata romantilistest episoodidest surelike orkimeeste ja surematute orkikaunitaride vahel! ;) Ja millised sugupuud sealt veel areneksid ja milline edasine geneetiline taimelava tõsise teadlase hingega Melkori-Sauroni paarile!

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Nolwendil kirjutab:
Vähemalt praegu on mul tunne, et Tolkieni teoste "viimase semikoolonini läbi uurimiseks" (nagu see topakas muinasjutuuurija ütles) läheb küll veel 50 aastat aega.


veidi offtopicut aga,
seesama muinasjutuuurija vabandas (ma vestlesin temaga paari kuu eest telefonitsi) ja teatas, et ta oli selle väljendi (et Tolkieni looming on ammu viimase semikoolonini läbi uuritud) lihtsalt rõhu pärast teksti pannud!


Viimati muudetud: Yahoo [Bot]; 07. juuni 2004, 10:55, muudetud kokku 3 korda.

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PostitusPostitatud: 07. juuni 2004, 10:31 
Kulla Mortimer,

Ma ei loe ennast JRRT-temaatikas just lollide kilda, aga lugesin eelmine nädal uuesti läbi Tolkieni kirjad (ca. 400 lk.) ja uus informatsioon/vaatenurgad lõid mind sõna otseses mõttes pahviks.


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PostitusPostitatud: 07. juuni 2004, 17:32 
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Azaghal kirjutab:
Kulla Mortimer,

Ma ei loe ennast JRRT-temaatikas just lollide kilda, aga lugesin eelmine nädal uuesti läbi Tolkieni kirjad (ca. 400 lk.) ja uus informatsioon/vaatenurgad lõid mind sõna otseses mõttes pahviks.

Eelkõige pean silmas suuri seoseid
Seega näide mingist JRR/CTolkieni materjalist pärit ebaolulisest infost: "JRRT kirjutas oma kirjas, et Aragorn tegelikult köhatas enne lahingut, mitte ei süganud mune"

Ja näide olulisest seosest: "Galadriel oli tegelikult maia ning varjas ennast haldja kujul Keskmaal, salaja istare aidates.."

NB! eelnenu oli lihtsalt näide, mitte JRRT loomingul põhinev tõestus. (..püüdes "osavalt" vältida järgneda võivat arutelu teemadel "Galadrieli tiivad" või "Aragornil ei sügelenudki - mida see meile Barahiri sõrmuse saatusest räägib")

Ja miks ma seda näitlikustan - asi selles, et arvasin ekslikult, et olulisi seoseid enam ei eksisteeri minu jaoks, aga võta näpust.

Seega järeldus -> eksisin ja ausalt öeldes olen ma väga rõõmus selle üle.

PS Kuldmari tegi väga õige järelduse, mida ma isegi mõtlesin. Kuid samas tolles eelnenud tsitaadis on välja toodud:
Tsiteeri:
For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms.

Selle kohaselt pole haldjaid mainitud, kuid kuna tõlgenduse üle võiba alati vaielda, loeks mina siit välja, et elf-orcide esinemist kaptenitena pole välistatud.

NB!! Samas vaatasin praegu Nolwendili "viidet", mis tegelikult puudub ehk siis "Leidsin arvutist ühe vana artikli või seesuguse, mis võtab kokku selle orkide päritolu vaidluse.
Seega kuni pole konkreetset viidet Tolkieni loomingule või sellele põhinevale uurimusele, arvan, et kogu arutelu võib pidada ikkagi vaid spekulatsiooniks.


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PostitusPostitatud: 07. juuni 2004, 18:07 
Ei ole ebaoluline midagi.........

Au contraire

Teave maagiast kui sellisest Keskmaal ja käsitlus Frodo "langemisest" Orodruinis on ilukirjanduslikult fundamentaalsemad kui Maiad orkikaptenitena.

Ka see siin:

viewtopic.php?t=767

Kui aus olla, siis mind faktoloogia eriti ei paelugi, küll aga põhjuslik analüüs kirjanduslikest tegelasseostest........

Aga eks see sõltub lugeja/uurija vaatenurgast.......


Viimati muudetud: Azaghâl; 12. juuni 2004, 13:02, muudetud 1 kord.

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